Poetry, riddle and authority

Use in the book

The dialogue draws repeatedly on poetry. The opening curse recalls tragedy; the “two together” tag encourages joint inquiry; the quoted Zeus criticizes human blame; an anonymous prayer supplies a desirable alternative; Euripides describes how each person gives attention to a favoured activity; Homeric scenes illuminate rejected sacrifice and the removal of mist. The end adapts tragic victory wreaths to Socrates’ own situation.

The Margites discussion makes the act of interpretation itself explicit. At 147b Alcibiades questions how the quotation bears on their discussion. Socrates answers that poets speak in riddles; at 147c he then asserts that it is impossible to know badly. A knowledgeable interpreter is needed, and the problem becomes harder if a poet is envious or unwilling to reveal his wisdom.

This portrait of the withholding poet should not be silently converted into a doctrine that all poetry has a single esoteric philosophical message. Socrates reconstructs this line by replacing an adverb with an adjective and a finite verb with an infinitive; he says the reconstructed sense falls outside metre. He is showing how the line can be made to fit the prior argument. Whether that is persuasive exegesis remains open to the reader.

Textual transmission adds another difficulty. The Trojan sacrificial verses are not all found at the quoted place in the surviving Homeric text, and the anonymous prayer has variant wording in other witnesses. A quoted line is therefore not a transparent window into a single invariant source. The lexicon marks the edition’s own apparatus and explanatory notes rather than assimilating every quotation to a modern standard text.

Places to read

1. 140aThe “two together” adaptation makes a Homeric tag serve cooperative inquiry.
2. 142d–143aHomeric blame and the anonymous prayer redirect the evaluation of petitions.
3. 146aEuripides’ verse is adapted to the expert commonwealth.
4. 147b–d2The riddling poet becomes an explicit hermeneutic problem.
5. 149d–eThe Trojan verses raise a separate issue of quotation and textual transmission.
6. 150d–151c2Homeric vision and tragic crowns supply the closing educational images.

Translation in this edition

Greek letterspacing and verse layout determine the edition’s English quotation marks. The words “or unintelligence” at 142d belong to Socrates’ addition, not to the cited Homeric wording; “of the commonwealth” at 146a is an adaptation. The Margites is traditionally attributed to Homer within the dialogue, not treated here as securely Homeric authorship.

Use in the book

Socrates proposes making further use of Euripides and puts a question to him in imagination. Who are the wise through whose company tyrants become wise? Recasting the line with farmers, cooks and wrestlers makes the relevant field easy to identify. Returning to tyrants produces Theages' admission that he does not know. The borrowed line is therefore an object of analysis rather than an authoritative answer that ends inquiry.

The precise shifts within the examples are revealing. The farmer response identifies farming matters; the cook response names cooks; the wrestler response identifies wrestling. The text does not insist on one grammatical pattern, but each answer points to a familiar activity or practitioner. Political wisdom lacks an equally unproblematic specification. Anacreon's Callicrite then supplies an answer whose obscurity and comic effect expose rather than solve that problem.

The attribution requires restraint. The dialogue says Euripides, as does Republic 568a–b according to the edition. Its note also reports Gellius' discovery of the verse in Sophocles' Ajax the Locrian. The lexicon can distinguish the dialogue's attribution from the later report without silently rewriting the speaker's words. The authorship of the line is an ancillary textual question; the philosophical difficulty would remain even if the attribution were certain.

Places to read

1. 125bσοφοὶ τύραννοι τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ — The quoted maxim links wisdom and association
2. 125b–c2τῶν τί σοφῶν — “Those wise in what?” is the question the maxim leaves open
3. 125cτῶν μαγείρων — Burnet's text answers the cooks' version by naming practitioners
4. 125dἈλλὰ μὰ Δί’ οὐκ οἶδ’ ἔγωγε — Theages admits that he cannot identify the tyrants' relevant knowledge

Translation in this edition

The verse is set as verse and “wise” is repeated without replacing it by “skilled” in the occupational versions. The apparatus records proposed alternatives to tōn mageirōn; the supplied translation keeps “the cooks”. That small irregularity should not be normalized in an exact quotation.

Cooks — μάγειρος (mageiros)

μάγειρος (mageiros)

Cooks. Practitioners substituted into the poetic maxim; their familiar activity makes the question “wise in what?” easy to answer. Attested: μάγειροι (125c). Poetry quotation and the authority of a famous line.

Euripides — Εὐριπίδης (Euripidēs)

Εὐριπίδης (Euripidēs)

Euripides. The poet to whom Socrates attributes the line about tyrants becoming wise through wise company. Attested: Εὐριπίδης (125b). Poetry quotation and the authority of a famous line.

Poet — ποιητής (poiētēs)

ποιητής (poiētēs)

Poet. The maker of the song, referred to for what he said Callicrite knew. Attested: ποιητής (125e). Poetry quotation and the authority of a famous line.

Wrestlers — παλαιστής (palaistēs)

παλαιστής (palaistēs)

Wrestlers. The third practical class substituted for tyrants in the verse; wrestling supplies its identifiable subject. Attested: παλαισταὶ (125c). Poetry quotation and the authority of a famous line.

Wise tyrants through wise association (contextual phrase)

125b: σοφοὶ τύραννοι τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ. The instrumental dative gives association as the means by which tyrants are wise; tōn sophōn identifies those associated with. The construction does not specify their field of wisdom. Socrates' question asks for that missing complement rather than simply denying that company can educate. The farmer, cook and wrestler substitutions test the same structure. See Poetry and authority.

Use in the book

Socrates answers the companion's inherited view of Minos by ranking sources: Homer and Hesiod are more persuasive than all the makers of tragedy together (318e). He does not give a general rule that poetry is reliable. The later warning about poets' power over opinion shows why each use requires attention to whose poetry, what it says, and why it may say it.

The first quotation combines Homer's notice of Crete's ninety cities with the two lines describing Cnossus and Minos (Odyssey 19.178–179 in the supplied note). The quoted line contains the difficult enneōros and oaristēs. Socrates' prose turns those words into a recurring educational encounter with Zeus. The verse itself does not state all the narrative details that follow: the cave, learning new things and displaying the previous period's learning belong to the interpretation developed in his speech. The rare privilege is then called a supreme encomium, and the second occurrence of the verse reiterates the proposed sense.

The Nekyia supplies a different kind of support. Socrates reports Homer's depiction of Minos judging with a golden scepter and contrasts the absence of a corresponding depiction of Rhadamanthys in that scene. This passage is summarized rather than quoted as a second block of epic. Hesiod is then quoted in three lines praising Minos' exceptional kingship and possession of Zeus' scepter (320d). Socrates immediately identifies the scepter with Zeus' education. Again, the interpretation and the quoted words are separate levels of evidence. The source's note identifies the lines as Hesiod fragment 144 Merkelbach–West, preserved through this passage; the quotation is not a second surviving continuous Hesiodic narrative independently described here.

Finally, Homer returns in the formula “shepherd of the people” (321c). It connects the old lawgivers to a good general and the earlier herding analogy. It does not provide the missing answer about what a lawgiver distributes to a soul. Poetry has supplied models and honorific descriptions, while the final examination still demands an articulated account.

Places to read

1. 318eπιθανώτεροί εἰσιν ἢ σύμπαντες οἱ τραγῳδοποιοί — Socrates ranks Homer and Hesiod above the tragedians in persuasiveness
2. 319bἔνι Κνωσὸς μεγάλη πόλις, ἔνθα τε Μίνως — The first quoted verse locates Minos at Cnossus
3. 319cτοῦτο τὸ γέρας; ἀπένειμεν Ὅμηρος — Homer is said to distribute a privilege to Minos
4. 319dτοῦτο γὰρ σημαίνει τὸ ἔπος — Socrates explicitly announces what he takes the verse to mean
5. 320dὃς βασιλεύτατος γένετο θνητῶν βασιλήων — Hesiod's quoted superlative praises Minos among mortal kings
6. 321cποιμένα λαῶν — The Homeric formula concludes the identification of rulers as shepherds

Translation in this edition

The verse, prose quotation fragments and surrounding interpretation are typographically distinguished. The translation of πολέων at 320d is “many,” an epic genitive of the adjective, not “cities.” The edition's notes supply the ancient references; this companion does not claim fresh collation of Homer or Hesiod.

Akin — ἀδελφός (adelphos)

ἀδελφός (adelphos)

Akin. Literally sibling-related, here figuratively kindred or corresponding: Hesiod says things akin to the preceding account of Minos. Attested: ἀδελφὰ (320c). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Briefly — βραχύς (brachys)

βραχύς (brachys)

Briefly. Short or brief, in the idiom through few words; qualifies Homer's compact praise and later the available bodily answer. Attested: βραχέων (319c). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Cnossus — Κνωσός (Knōsos)

Κνωσός (Knōsos)

Cnossus. The great Cretan city named in the quoted Homeric line locating Minos' kingship. Attested: Κνωσὸς (319b). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Represent in poetry — ποιεῖν (poiein)

ποιεῖν (poiein)

Represent in poetry. Homer has made or represented Minos judging with a golden scepter in the Nekyia; this concerns poetic portrayal, not Homer causing a historical judgment. Attested: πεποίηκε (319d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Dwelling round — περικτίων (periktiōn)

περικτίων (periktiōn)

Dwelling round. Dwelling around or neighboring; describes the people over whom Minos rules in the Hesiodic quotation. Attested: περικτιόνων (320d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Eulogize — ἐγκωμιάζειν (enkōmiazein)

ἐγκωμιάζειν (enkōmiazein)

Eulogize. To praise in an encomium; Socrates announces how Homer and Hesiod praise Minos. Attested: ἐγκωμιάζουσι (319b). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Eulogy — ἐγκώμιον (enkōmion)

ἐγκώμιον (enkōmion)

Eulogy. A statement in praise of someone; Socrates treats Homer's brief description as an exceptional eulogy of Minos. Attested: ἐγκώμιον (319c). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

General — στρατηγός (stratēgos)

στρατηγός (stratēgos)

General. A military commander, whom Socrates calls a shepherd of the people through a Homeric formula; the term is not a named Athenian officeholder here. Attested: στρατηγόν (321c). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Hesiod — Ἡσίοδος (Hēsiodos)

Ἡσίοδος (Hēsiodos)

Hesiod. The poet whose quoted praise of Minos and Zeus' scepter supplies a second poetic source, interpreted by Socrates in educational terms. Attested: Ἡσίοδος (320c). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Homer — Ὅμηρος (Homēros)

Ὅμηρος (Homēros)

Homer. The poet Socrates invokes as a more persuasive witness than the tragedians; quoted verse and Socrates' interpretation must remain distinct. Attested: Ὅμηρος (319b). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Kingliest — βασιλεύτατος (basileutatos)

βασιλεύτατος (basileutatos)

Kingliest. An emphatic superlative in Hesiod's verse, praising Minos as preeminent among mortal kings. Attested: βασιλεύτατος (320d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Many — πολύς (polys)

πολύς (polys)

Many. Epic genitive plural of many in the quotation, referring to those ruled; the edition expressly distinguishes it from a genitive of cities. Attested: πολέων (320d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Means — σημαίνειν (sēmainein)

σημαίνειν (sēmainein)

Means. To signify or indicate; marks Socrates' proposed interpretation of the epic verse, rather than a further verbatim quotation. Attested: σημαίνει (319d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Mentioning — μιμνῄσκεσθαι (mimnēiskesthai)

μιμνῄσκεσθαι (mimnēiskesthai)

Mentioning. To recall or mention; the participle introduces Hesiod's mention of Minos by name before the quoted praise. Attested: μνησθεὶς (320d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Mortal — θνητός (thnētos)

θνητός (thnētos)

Mortal. Subject to death; qualifies the kings among whom the quoted Hesiodic Minos is said to be supreme. Attested: θνητῶν (320d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Name — ὄνομα (onoma) · ὀνόματος (320d).

ὄνομα (onoma)

Name. Minos’ name as mentioned in Hesiod’s account, introducing the quoted praise; the noun identifies whom the poetic passage concerns. Attested: ὀνόματος (320d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Ninety — ἐνενήκοντα (enenēkonta)

ἐνενήκοντα (enenēkonta)

Ninety. The number of Cretan cities in Homer's phrase as cited by Socrates; part of the poetic description, not a fresh civic census. Attested: ἐνενήκοντα (319b). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

People — λαός (laos)

λαός (laos)

People. People collectively in the Homeric shepherd formula; the epic expression links good leadership with the preceding herding analogy. Attested: λαῶν (321c). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Praise — ἔπαινος (epainos)

ἔπαινος (epainos)

Praise. Praise given for Minos' singular educational privilege; its extent is emphasized rather than a new quality independently proved. Attested: ἔπαινος (319d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Privilege — γέρας (geras)

γέρας (geras)

Privilege. An honor or privileged distinction, specifically education by Zeus, said to be assigned by Homer to Minos alone among the heroes. Attested: γέρας (319c). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Room to exceed — ὑπερβολή (hyperbolē)

ὑπερβολή (hyperbolē)

Room to exceed. A going beyond or excess; the claim that praise allows no surpassing means that it could not be made higher. Attested: ὑπερβολὴν (319d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Ruled — ἀνάσσειν (anassein)

ἀνάσσειν (anassein)

Ruled. An epic verb of lordship, used in Hesiod's quoted praise of Minos' rule over neighboring people. Attested: ἤνασσε (320d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Tell or explain — φράζειν (phrazein)

φράζειν (phrazein)

Tell or explain. Socrates promises to explain how Homer and Hesiod eulogize Minos, with the stated purpose of preventing the companion’s verbal error against a hero. Attested: φράσω (319b). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Verse — ἔπος (epos)

ἔπος (epos)

Verse. An utterance or line of verse, here the repeated Homeric line whose meaning Socrates proceeds to explain. Attested: ἔπος (319d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Was king — βασιλεύειν (basileuein)

βασιλεύειν (basileuein)

Was king. To reign or exercise kingship; the imperfect in the Homeric verse belongs to the description Socrates interprets educationally. Attested: βασίλευε (319b). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Wonderful — θαυμαστός (thaumastos)

θαυμαστός (thaumastos)

Wonderful. Remarkable or wonderful, qualifying the praise implied by Minos' education from Zeus in Socrates' interpretation. Attested: θαυμαστός (319d). Homer, Hesiod, and the authority of quoted poetry.

Not by Homer and Hesiod at any rate (contextual phrase)

318e: Οὔκουν ὑπό γε Ὁμήρου καὶ Ἡσιόδου. Socrates' negative answer is restricted by the agents he names. He does not deny that the harsh story is told about Minos; he denies that these selected poets are its authorities. This distinction allows the companion's report to remain a real fact about reception while Socrates disputes its truth and pedigree. See Homer and Hesiod.

No other hero received this privilege (contextual phrase)

319c: οὐκ ἔστιν ὅτῳ ἀπένειμεν … ἄλλῳ ἢ Μίνῳ. The construction makes the distribution of this particular Homeric honor exclusive to Minos. The honor in question is education by Zeus. It does not say that Homer gives no honor to any other hero, or that no other hero is a child of Zeus. The scope of “this privilege” is indispensable. See Homer and Hesiod.