Oldest laws and their persistence

Use in the book

At 318b Socrates asks for a good old lawgiver in music. He then emphasizes that the tunes remain and asks for the corresponding good kingly lawgiver whose lawful usages remain as divine. Only after this does he ask which Greeks use the oldest laws (318c). The question about age arises within a search already qualified by goodness and divine persistence.

The companion proposes the Spartans and Lycurgus. Socrates answers that these arrangements are perhaps not yet three hundred years old, or slightly older, and asks where their best usages came from. “From Crete, they say” leads to the Cretans' priority (318c–d). This is a claim about transmission and comparative antiquity among Greeks, not a demonstrated chronology of every people in the world.

At 321b persistence becomes the “greatest sign” of Minos' goodness: his laws are unmoved because he discovered well the truth concerning civic administration. This takes up the earlier account of knowers who do not change what they write about the same matters (317b). The account forms a chain: knowledge is stable; right rules express knowledge; the stability of Minos' rules is offered as a sign of his discovery. A reader may accept the first claim while questioning whether observed endurance alone proves the last. The dialogue gives the argument, but does not systematically exclude alternative reasons why customs might persist.

It is also important that the conclusion remains part of an exchange. The companion calls the argument reasonable; Socrates then frames his next question “if what I say is true” (321b). The final failure to specify the soul's provisions prevents the narrative of ancient authority from closing every philosophical question. Age and persistence help nominate exemplary lawgivers; they do not supply the missing account of psychic improvement.

Places to read

1. 318bτίς τῶν παλαιῶν ἀγαθὸς γέγονεν — The search combines antiquity with goodness from its outset
2. 318b–cμόνα λοιπά, ὡς θεῖα ὄντα — The musical example joins survival and divinity
3. 318cοὗ ἔτι καὶ νῦν τὰ νόμιμα μένει — A king is sought whose lawful usages still persist
4. 318cτίνες παλαιοτάτοις νόμοις χρῶνται τῶν Ἑλλήνων — Comparative antiquity is expressly bounded to the Greeks
5. 321bἀκίνητοι αὐτοῦ οἱ νόμοι εἰσίν — The stability of Minos' laws is offered as the greatest sign
6. 321bεἰ ἐγὼ ἀληθῆ λέγω — Socrates' concluding question retains an explicit condition

Translation in this edition

“Old,” “oldest,” “remain,” “left,” and “unmoved” keep distinct the age of a practice, its survival, and its freedom from alteration. “Lawgiver” is also used in the musical example. The edition does not render every appeal to antiquity as “tradition” or silently remove the qualifiers in the estimate of Lycurgus' date.

Lawgiver — νομοθέτης (nomothetēs)

νομοθέτης (nomothetēs)

Lawgiver. A maker or establisher of laws, first sought here in the musical domain of flute nomes, then among ancient kings. Attested: νομοθέτης (318b). Oldest laws and their persistence.

Left — λοιπός (loipos)

λοιπός (loipos)

Left. Remaining or surviving, said of the divine tunes still present. Survival is then used as a model for the persistence of laws. Attested: λοιπά (318c). Oldest laws and their persistence.

Men of old — παλαιός (palaios)

παλαιός (palaios)

Men of old. Ancient people among whom Socrates seeks a good musical lawgiver; age is joined to an independent qualification of goodness. Attested: παλαιῶν (318b). Oldest laws and their persistence.

Oldest — παλαιός (palaios)

παλαιός (palaios)

Oldest. The superlative qualifying laws used by a Greek people. The scope is explicitly among Greeks, not all human societies. Attested: παλαιοτάτοις (318c). Oldest laws and their persistence.

Remain — μένειν (menein)

μένειν (menein)

Remain. To persist into the present, said of the lawful usages of the old king Socrates asks the companion to identify. Attested: μένει (318c). Oldest laws and their persistence.

Unmoved — ἀκίνητος (akinētos)

ἀκίνητος (akinētos)

Unmoved. Unchanged or stable, the predicate of Minos’ laws offered as the greatest sign that he was a good distributor who had discovered civic truth. Attested: ἀκίνητοι (321b). Oldest laws and their persistence.

Still even now (contextual phrase)

318b–c: ἔτι καὶ νῦν. The temporal phrase links old musical compositions and old lawful usages with continued presence in the speakers' time. Their survival is part of the bridge from musical lawgivers to kings. Persistence is not simply the dictionary meaning of “divine,” though Socrates presents these cases as surviving in virtue of divinity. See Oldest laws.