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The Lovers · 137a–137c
Ancient Greek
p. 18137aεἰρημένα. ἔχει δέ πως ὡδί. ὡμολογήσαμεν καλὸν εἶναι τὴν φιλοσοφίαν καὶ αὐτοὶ φιλόσοφοι εἶναι, τοὺς δὲ φιλοσόφους ἀγαθούς, τοὺς δὲ ἀγαθοὺς χρησίμους, τοὺς δὲ πονηροὺς ἀχρήστους· αὖθις δ’ αὖ τοὺς φιλοσόφους ὡμολογήσαμεν, ἕως ἂν οἱ δημιουργοὶ ὦσιν, ἀχρήστους εἶναι, δημιουργοὺς δὲ ἀεὶ εἶναι. οὐ γὰρ ταῦτα ὡμολόγηται;
Πάνυ γε, ἦ δ’ ὅς.
Ὡμολογοῦμεν ἄρα, ὡς ἔοικε, κατά γε τὸν σὸν λόγον, εἴπερ τὸ φιλοσοφεῖν ἐστι περὶ τὰς τέχνας ἐπιστήμονας εἶναι ὃν σὺ λέγεις τὸν τρόπον, πονηροὺς αὐτοὺς εἶναι καὶ 137b ἀχρήστους, ἕως ἂν ἐν ἀνθρώποις τέχναι ὦσιν. ἀλλὰ μὴ οὐχ οὕτως, ὦ φίλε, ἔχωσι, μηδ’ ᾖ τοῦτο φιλοσοφεῖν, περὶ τὰς τέχνας ἐσπουδακέναι, οὐδὲ πολυπραγμονοῦντα κυπτάζοντα ζῆν οὐδὲ πολυμαθοῦντα, ἀλλ’ ἄλλο τι, ἐπεὶ ἐγὼ ᾤμην καὶ ὄνειδος εἶναι τοῦτο καὶ βαναύσους καλεῖσθαι τοὺς περὶ τὰς τέχνας ἐσπουδακότας. ὧδε δὲ σαφέστερον εἰσόμεθα εἰ ἄρα ἀληθῆ λέγω, ἐὰν τοῦτο ἀποκρίνῃ· τίνες ἵππους ἐπίστανται 137c κολάζειν ὀρθῶς; πότερον οἵπερ βελτίστους ποιοῦσιν ἢ ἄλλοι;
Οἵπερ βελτίστους.
Τί δέ; κύνας οὐχ οἳ βελτίστους ἐπίστανται ποιεῖν, οὗτοι καὶ κολάζειν ὀρθῶς ἐπίστανται;
Ναί.
Ἡ αὐτὴ ἄρα τέχνη βελτίστους τε ποιεῖ καὶ κολάζει ὀρθῶς;
Φαίνεταί μοι, ἦ δ’ ὅς.
Τί δέ; πότερον ἥπερ βελτίστους τε ποιεῖ καὶ κολάζει
The Lovers
p. 19137ahas been said. It stands roughly as follows. We agreed that philosophy is fine, and that we ourselves are philosophers, and philosophers good, and the good useful, and the base useless;1 and then again, in turn, we agreed that philosophers are useless as long as there are craftsmen, and that there always are craftsmen. Has this not been agreed?”
“Certainly,” said he.
“Then, it seems, we were agreeing, by your argument at least, that if philosophizing is having knowledge about the crafts in the way you mean, philosophers are base and 137b useless as long as there are crafts among men. But I suspect, my friend, that they are not so, nor is philosophizing this, being in earnest about the crafts, nor living as a busybody, stooping over things, nor learning much, but something else; since I, for my part, thought both that this was a disgrace and that those who are in earnest about the crafts are called menial.2 But we shall know more clearly in this way whether, after all, what I say is true, if you answer this: who know how to 137c punish horses rightly? Is it the very ones who make them best, or others?”
“The very ones who make them best.”
“Well? Dogs: is it not those who know how to make them best who also know how to punish them rightly?”
“Yes.”
“Then the same craft both makes them best and punishes them rightly?”
“It appears so to me,” said he.
“Well? The craft that makes them best and punishes
Socrates
Reading The Lovers · The Lovers · 137a–137c
Ask about a concept, passage, contradiction, or connection.
Socrates will begin with this book and its sources.About This Reading Edition
Socrates recalls a debate between two rival lovers about what philosophy is: much learning, a knowledge of many crafts, or the knowledge by which we know ourselves and judge rightly. This complete edition presents the dialogue, 132a–139a, across thirteen Greek–English page pairs, with an introduction, Key Words of the Dialogue, an outline, glossary, critical apparatus, and thirty translator’s notes. The dialogue is transmitted among Plato’s works; its authorship remains disputed.
Historical Text and Translation
The Greek follows John Burnet’s Platonis Opera, volume II (Oxford, 1901; second edition, 1910), in a later Oxford impression printed by John Johnson. The supplied edition checks the Perseus Digital Library transcription against the printed pages and retains Burnet’s paragraphing, verse, editorial signs, and critical apparatus. The supplied PDF preserves the complete printed layout.
About Diotimos Editions
Diotimos Editions prepared this independent English translation directly from the Greek. Socrates’ narration, the rival lovers’ exchanges, and the distinctions between learning, craft, usefulness, justice, and temperance remain aligned with the Greek. All thirty translator’s notes accompany their passages. The introduction and Key Words of the Dialogue precede the text; the Outline, Editorial Note, Glossary of Key Terms, and Note on this Edition follow it.
Rights
The ancient Greek work and Burnet’s printed edition are in the public domain. The Perseus digital Greek transcription and its modifications are attributed to the Perseus Digital Library, Tufts University, and reused under CC BY-SA 4.0. The independent English translation and Diotimos editorial matter are © 2026 Diotimos Editions.
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