The Lovers

Name: The Lovers
Author: Plato

Ancient Greek with an independent English translation.

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The LoversThe Lovers · 135a–135d

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English Page · Branch 9 of 20

The Lovers · 135a–135d

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Ancient Greek

p. 12

Ἐπειδὴ οὖν μοι ἐδόκουν ἀθυμεῖν πρὸς τὸν λόγον, ἄλλῃ ἐπειρώμην σκοπεῖν, καὶ εἶπον, Ποῖα δὲ μάλιστα ἄττα τοπάζομεν εἶναι τῶν μαθημάτων ἃ δεῖ τὸν φιλοσοφοῦντα μανθάνειν, ἐπειδὴ οὐχὶ πάντα οὐδὲ πολλά;

135bὙπολαβὼν οὖν ὁ σοφώτερος εἶπεν ὅτι Κάλλιστα ταῦτ’ εἴη τῶν μαθημάτων καὶ προσήκοντα ἀφ’ ὧν ἂν πλείστην δόξαν ἔχοι τις εἰς φιλοσοφίαν· πλείστην δ’ ἂν ἔχοι δόξαν, εἰ δοκοίη τῶν τεχνῶν ἔμπειρος εἶναι πασῶν, εἰ δὲ μή, ὡς πλείστων γε καὶ μάλιστα τῶν ἀξιολόγων, μαθὼν αὐτῶν ταῦτα ἃ προσήκει τοῖς ἐλευθέροις μαθεῖν, ὅσα συνέσεως ἔχεται, μὴ ὅσα χειρουργίας.

Ἆρ’ οὖν οὕτω λέγεις, ἔφην ἐγώ, ὥσπερ ἐν τῇ τεκτονικῇ; 135c καὶ γὰρ ἐκεῖ τέκτονα μὲν ἂν πρίαιο πέντε ἢ ἓξ μνῶν, ἄκρον ἀρχιτέκτονα δὲ οὐδ’ ἂν μυρίων δραχμῶν· ὀλίγοι γε μὴν κἂν ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς Ἕλλησι γίγνοιντο. ἆρα μή τι τοιοῦτον λέγεις; Καὶ ὃς ἀκούσας μου συνεχώρει καὶ αὐτὸς λέγειν τοιοῦτον.

Ἠρόμην δ’ αὐτὸν εἰ οὐκ ἀδύνατον εἴη δύο μόνας τέχνας οὕτω μαθεῖν τὸν αὐτόν, μὴ ὅτι πολλὰς καὶ μεγάλας· ὁ δέ, Μὴ οὕτως μου, ἔφη, ὑπολάβῃς, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὡς λέγοντος ὅτι δεῖ ἑκάστην τῶν τεχνῶν τὸν φιλοσοφοῦντα ἐπίστασθαι 135d ἀκριβῶς ὥσπερ αὐτὸν τὸν τὴν τέχνην ἔχοντα, ἀλλ’ ὡς εἰκὸς ἄνδρα ἐλεύθερόν τε καὶ πεπαιδευμένον, ἐπακολουθῆσαί τε τοῖς λεγομένοις ὑπὸ τοῦ δημιουργοῦ οἷόν τ’ εἶναι διαφερόντως τῶν παρόντων, καὶ αὐτὸν ξυμβάλλεσθαι γνώμην, ὥστε δοκεῖν χαριέστατον εἶναι καὶ σοφώτατον τῶν ἀεὶ παρόντων ἐν τοῖς λεγομένοις τε καὶ πραττομένοις περὶ τὰς τέχνας.

Κἀγώ, ἔτι γὰρ αὐτοῦ ἠμφεγνόουν τὸν λόγον ὅτι ἐβούλετο,

135a 7.Source editor’s annotationμάλιστα αὐτὰ τοπάζομεν B: μάλιστα τοπάζομεν ἄττα T

135a 8.Source editor’s annotationφιλοσοφοῦντα B: φιλόσοφον T

135a 9.Source editor’s annotationἐπειδὴ B: ἐπεὶ T

135b 3.Source editor’s annotationδ’ ἂν BT: δ’ Schanz

135b 5.Source editor’s annotationγε B: τε T

135b 5.Source editor’s annotationμάλιστα T: μάλα B

135c 2.Source editor’s annotationκἂν . . . c3 γίγνοιντο Schanz: καὶ . . . γίγνοιντο B: καὶ . . . γίγνονται T

135c 3.Source editor’s annotationμή τι T: μὴ B

135c 4.Source editor’s annotationαὐτὸς T: αὐτοῦ B

135c 4.Source editor’s annotationλέγειν τοιοῦτον B: τοιοῦτον λέγειν T

135c 5.Source editor’s annotationμόνας B: μόνον T

135c 6.Source editor’s annotationμαθεῖν BT: λαβεῖν ex emend. T

135d 5.Source editor’s annotationτῶν αἰεὶ B: αἰεὶ τῶν T

The Lovers

p. 13

Then, since they seemed to me to have lost heart over the argument, I tried to look into it another way, and said, “What sort of subjects of learning, then, at our best guess, are the ones the man who philosophizes must learn, since it is not all, nor many?”

135bSo the wiser one took this up and said that the finest of the subjects of learning, and the fitting ones, were those from which one would have the greatest reputation for philosophy; and he would have the greatest reputation if he seemed to be experienced in all the crafts, or if not, in as many as possible, at any rate, and especially in those worth mentioning, having learned of them what is fitting for free men to learn, whatever belongs to understanding, not whatever belongs to handiwork.

“Do you mean it, then,” said I, “as in carpentry? 135c For there too a carpenter you could buy for five or six minae, but a top master builder not even for ten thousand drachmas; and there would be few of them, indeed, even in all Greece.¹ Can it be something like this that you mean?” And he, hearing me, conceded that he too meant something of the sort.

Then I asked him whether it was not impossible for one and the same man to learn only two crafts in this way, let alone many and great ones; and he said, “Don’t take me that way, Socrates, as saying that the man who philosophizes must know each of the crafts 135d precisely, like the man who has the craft himself, but as is reasonable for a free and educated man: to be able to follow what is said by the craftsman better than those present, and to contribute a judgment of his own, so as to seem the most accomplished and the wisest of whoever is present at what is said and done about the crafts.”

And I—for I was still in doubt about his argument, what he meant—

About This Reading Edition

Socrates recalls a debate between two rival lovers about what philosophy is: much learning, a knowledge of many crafts, or the knowledge by which we know ourselves and judge rightly. This complete edition presents the dialogue, 132a–139a, across thirteen Greek–English page pairs, with an introduction, Key Words of the Dialogue, an outline, glossary, critical apparatus, and thirty translator’s notes. The dialogue is transmitted among Plato’s works; its authorship remains disputed.

Discussion Questions

Historical Text and Translation

The Greek follows John Burnet’s Platonis Opera, volume II (Oxford, 1901; second edition, 1910), in a later Oxford impression printed by John Johnson. The supplied edition checks the Perseus Digital Library transcription against the printed pages and retains Burnet’s paragraphing, verse, editorial signs, and critical apparatus. The supplied PDF preserves the complete printed layout.

About Diotimos Editions

Diotimos Editions prepared this independent English translation directly from the Greek. Socrates’ narration, the rival lovers’ exchanges, and the distinctions between learning, craft, usefulness, justice, and temperance remain aligned with the Greek. All thirty translator’s notes accompany their passages. The introduction and Key Words of the Dialogue precede the text; the Outline, Editorial Note, Glossary of Key Terms, and Note on this Edition follow it.

Rights

The ancient Greek work and Burnet’s printed edition are in the public domain. The Perseus digital Greek transcription and its modifications are attributed to the Perseus Digital Library, Tufts University, and reused under CC BY-SA 4.0. The independent English translation and Diotimos editorial matter are © 2026 Diotimos Editions.