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Platonic dialogue

Plato

Laws

Translated by David Horan

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01

Edition details

Dialogue
Laws
Translator
David Horan
Edition
Not recorded
Publisher
Not recorded
Year
Not recorded
Language
en
Public use basis
Permission confirmed by the owner
Edition source
https://www.platonicfoundation.org/translation/laws/
02

Citable passages

The cited passage preserves its PDF page number and Stephanus reference when present in this edition.

  1. PDF page 34

    previously, rather than parting as enemies, as they do nowadays? Wouldn’t all their dealings with one another be conducted in accordance with the laws, following these whenever the sober men give the lead to those who are not sober?

    CLINIAS: That’s right, provided the party is as you are describing it.

    ATHENIAN: Then let us not criticise the gift of Dionysus in this unqualified way any longer, saying that it is bad for the city and should be rejected. In fact, one could elaborate on this to an even greater extent. Yet I am reluctant to describe to most people the greatest good that it bestows, because people misunderstand and misinterpret what is said.

    CLINIAS: What sort of benefit are you referring to?

    ATHENIAN:: There is a report and a tradition in circulation according to which, this god, Dionysus, was robbed of his soul’s understanding by his stepmother, Hera, and because of this he introduced revelry and frenzied dancing to get his revenge. And that’s the very reason why he gave us the gift of wine too. Now, I leave such stories to those who think it safe to relate them about the gods, but this much I do know. No living creature is ever born with the intel-ligence, or as much intelligence, as it should possess when it reaches maturity. During the stage of life in which it has not yet acquired its proper intelligence it is totally mad, makes disordered noises, and as soon as it can stand up it jumps about in a disordered manner too. And we should remind ourselves that the origins of both music and gymnastics, according to us, lie in such behaviour.

    CLINIAS: We remember, of course.

    ATHENIAN: Didn’t we also say that this was the origin of the awareness of rhythm and harmony instilled in us humans, and that the gods responsible for this were Apollo, the Muses and Dionysus?

    CLINIAS: Of course.

    ATHENIAN: And, indeed, according to everyone else’s account, wine, it seems, was given to human-ity out of revenge, to make us mad, whereas our own account maintains, on the contrary, that it is a remedy, given so that we may acquire reverence of soul, and health and strength of body.

    CLINIAS: Your recollection of the argument is excellent, stranger.

    ATHENIAN: Let us say, then, that one half of choral performance has been dealt with fully. Shall we deal with the other half, as seems best, or shall we leave it?

    CLINIAS: What are you referring to? What are the two divisions you are making?

    ATHENIAN: Choral performance as a whole was, for us, the process of education as a whole, and rhythm and harmony was the part of this that relates to the voice.

    CLINIAS: Yes.

    ATHENIAN: But although the part that relates to the movement of the body and the part that relates to the movement of the voice have rhythm in common, bearing is unique to the body’s motion, while melody is unique to the motion of the voice.

    CLINIAS: Very true.

    ATHENIAN: Now, those aspects of the education of the voice towards excellence, which actually reach the soul, we have for some reason called music.

    CLINIAS: And rightly so.

    ATHENIAN: But the movements of the body in creatures at play we called dance.